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You said he was wrong and was spreading misinformatin right? But I showed you (and you agreed) that blowouts can effect 48+ minutes. Not in all situations, but there are situations where it affects 48+ minutes. So Phyr is not wrong, but I agree it is not necessary to avoid blowouts as a whole and blame everything on it.

No I don't agree that blowouts affect the substitution of weak trainees and I maintain Phyr is indeed wrong on the subject (while the other american manager was correct). I say this because it's not garbage time or a blow out that causes the trainee to be subbed out. What causes it is the combination of the player having poor skills and stamina and the fact that on the bench there are better options.

You should realise that such statements can't be right because you have the same exact problem in non garbage time games, where a trainee with poor stamina and relatively poor skills gets subbed out for a better player. The issue appears more often in garbage time only because most people start their better players, but it is not caused by garbage time, hence the misinformation. If you play CPfDC, like the other american manager said he did, odds are you figured out what happens when the stronger players are set as backups to begin with and how to take advantage of it.

Now try this if you will: play your better players as backup in a blowout game where you are guaranteed to have garbage time and see if your trainee gets pulled. If you have garbage time then your best players will be in because they are backups. See for yourself if they take the trainee's place then. Note that in CPfDC a significantly better player will play most of the minutes in the first 3 quarters as well regardless of whether he is a starter or a backup, but he is guaranteed to play all garbage time if he was set as backup. The only caveat with CPfDC is that if your backup is so much stronger than the starter, the coach will subvert the orders and start him instead....but the guy set as backup by you in the original depth chart will still play all garbage time (I've had this happening in the same game and the guy I set as backup played 45-46 minutes). The coach subverting the manager's order is a known bug.

So to recap. If you know you will have garbage time and if you know your trainee has poor stamina and skills not good enough to be kept in the game until the end, then there is a logical conclusion isn't there? You make sure the potential substitutes (your top players at the position of training) will be playing somewhere else in garbage time by setting them as backups or will not play at all. Ultimately, as Trainerman said, it's very unlikely you will not be able to predict garbage time (unless your opponent surprisingly throws a game which he should have been able to compete in), so you should be able to prepare for it.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 9:56:09 AM

I don't agree with your stamina argument. My top two trainees have 2 ST and they have gotten 48+ minutes nearly every week for the last 5 seasons using strictly follow depth chart. The only games they haven't is because of foul outs. Maybe skills play a bigger role in it. Regardless of whether it is skills or stamina, the simple fact is that garbage time creates an opportunity substitutions and your trainee can be subbed out.

I purposely don't use the word "cause" because I know it's not the cause, but it has an effect, since it happens more often/to a bigger extend in garbage time situations. Therefore it affects it.

I'm saying players who get pulled have at least one of 2 requisites and usually both: low stamina and poor skills (compared to the potential substitutes). This is not equal to saying that all players with low stamina and low skills with get subbed out by default. Pace of tactics and game breaks (for example time-outs) presumably have an impact too since they reduce the speed at which stamina is depleted.

This guy (37094308) was not subbed out, he was playing against a 100k+ big man, he was by far my weakest player in the game and has 1 ST.

Ok then what are we arguing about now?

I don't agree with your stamina argument. My top two trainees have 2 ST and they have gotten 48+ minutes nearly every week for the last 5 seasons using strictly follow depth chart. The only games they haven't is because of foul outs. Maybe skills play a bigger role in it. Regardless of whether it is skills or stamina, the simple fact is that garbage time creates an opportunity substitutions and your trainee can be subbed out.

MI had a trainee in Utopia (32699067) who frequently had 47 minutes (or occasionally 46) in non-garbage time games despite all the other stuff being correct, and the guy coming in to replace him was not significantly better by any stretch, but his stamina was just so low (I think he started at atrocious, but I didn't track that in the training planner). I generally also didn't care that much about the lost minute, and his skills seemed to increase just fine.

This is the guy (31028459) I had with rock bottom 1 stamina. Here he got subbed out with 3.19 to go and never returned (as any player who gets subbed out due to stamina depletion does). http://www.buzzerbeater.com/match/66015900/reportmatch.as...

I can swear that 9 out of 10 of his 48 minutes were not actually 48+ but he lost seconds at the end of most games, be it a blow out or not. I had to sell my weakest trainee in order to make sure I'd be able to round his minutes, but it still was a nightmare because it was completely unpredictable and I ended under or overplaying other players. In S26 he also averaged 4.2 fouls per game which means in many cases I didn't even get to see how his game would end. I think he managed to foul out in the first half more than once.

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/14/2015 7:11:50 PM

Yo Lemonshine, why do you have to prepare for something that has no effect?

These things aren't mutually exclusive. Player A didn't get 48 minutes because he had rock bottom stamina. Player B didn't get 48 minutes because the lineup didn't account for the substitution patterns of being on the winning side of a garbage time game.

This is the guy (31028459) I had with rock bottom 1 stamina. Here he got subbed out with 3.19 to go and never returned (as any player who gets subbed out due to stamina depletion does). http://www.buzzerbeater.com/match/66015900/reportmatch.as...

I can swear that 9 out of 10 of his 48 minutes were not actually 48+ but he lost seconds at the end of most games, be it a blow out or not. I had to sell my weakest trainee in order to make sure I'd be able to round his minutes, but it still was a nightmare because it was completely unpredictable and I ended under or overplaying other players. In S26 he also averaged 4.2 fouls per game which means in many cases I didn't even get to see how his game would end. I think he managed to foul out in the first half more than once.

Why not just train stamina for a week? It kind of sounds like you cost yourself more than a week's worth of training anyway, in addition to the other complications.

why do you have to prepare for something that has no effect?

Because you prepare for both GT and no GT knowing that it's most likely a trainee gets pulled when specific players are on the bench

These things aren't mutually exclusive. Player A didn't get 48 minutes because he had rock bottom stamina. Player B didn't get 48 minutes because the lineup didn't account for the substitution patterns of being on the winning side of a garbage time game.

A you can't really do anything about it. B should never happen.

Why not just train stamina for a week? It kind of sounds like you cost yourself more than a week's worth of training anyway, in addition to the other complications

1) Stamina can't go lower that 1
2) The difference of effect between 1 ST and 2 ST on a trainee not being pulled at the end of games is very limited. I would have needed at least 3 ST sessions: how many missed training sessions (on all trainees) is that? Also, if you do train 3 levels, since you can't prevent training to go to the rest of the team as well, are you sure you are prepared to manage a team with many 8 and 9 stamina players?
3) Even if I trained him to 4 or 5 stamina (like Sid does when he gets trainees), would have this prevented him from fouling out? With that average of 4.2 fouls in 35 minutes, I'm really doubtful, therefore I would have still had a problem.

In the end it was either keep him (trainee #2) or another guy (trainee #3). Since he had both better skills and potential I chose to keep him (and train him over 2 games) rather than the other guy.

2) The difference of effect between 1 ST and 2 ST on a trainee not being pulled at the end of games is very limited.

If this is true, then it is because you are using CPfDC instead of SFDC. Pitiful Stamina (2) is absolutely enough to get 48+ with a lot of tactics combinations, using SFDC. Maybe not with RnG+FCP, I haven't tried that combo yet.

If your objective is to get a player 48 minutes in a single game, SFDC is the optimal choice.

3) Even if I trained him to 4 or 5 stamina (like Sid does when he gets trainees), would have this prevented him from fouling out?

Probably not. Experience, matchups and tactics plus aggresiveness would also need to be considered. But training him once in stamina would have probably allowed you to play him 48 minutes in the games where he didn't foul out, utilizing SFDC. 4 or 5 stamina would help his contribution to match ratings, but isn't necessary to reach 48 minutes.

are you sure you are prepared to manage a team with many 8 and 9 stamina players?

Yes, but if it happens it will be because I purchased them at that level, not because I spent 3 weeks training stamina for players who didn't need it to reach 48 minutes. I've trained Stamina one time in roughly 2 seasons, in a week where I had only 2 games.

Your willingness to play trainees a full 48 minutes should make training easier, not harder. The effects of GT is something you can plan to avoid, or you can use it as a guaranteed 11-13 minute block for anyone that needs it. I find GT to be a very useful tool for balancing trainee and non-trainee minutes alike.