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Thanks for your message! So just to clarify - you meant that you'd be willing to see all these rules&penalties being implemented that I proposed in those 4 long messages (all sent yesterday within 1 hour)?

To answer to your question: yes, you are still considered a homegrown team if you purchase back a player that your team has initially drafted, so it's perfectly legal. :) Also in this league we will use Eliocroca CBs' manager LOPOs' definition of a homegrown team, which allows such actions. We might make some informative listing/comparison of teams based on whether they have received a salary benefits from such actions, but it's still undecided.

We have 2 replies so far (not counting myself, as my vote is obvious), 1 rooting for much more simple rules, and now you (apparently, if I understood it right) leveled the score at 1-1. :)

So other 11 managers as well that are participating in this newly established homegrown league, please share your thoughts on this previous rules/penalties suggestion of mine (sent on the forum yesterday), as time is not on our side for too long (start of next season is closing). I could be guessing what certain managers might vote for, but on the other hand it'd be better to take nothing for granted, and I'd rather let their voice out their opinion here on this kind of set of rules without making assumptions.

Like I mentioned earlier, while I have a clear view on what I'd like this league to look like, a compromise is also a real possibility. This previously sent suggestion is probably my ideal structure of rules and penalties (that I could come up with with this amount of time on my hands), but I understand it's not ideal for some other managers.

So as I'm not in this alone so let's see if (even massive) compromise from my part is required in order to be able to get this started at the next season, as that's one of my top priorities as well. Having said that, for me better laid groundwork would be more important than getting it launched by some certain day, but again, I realize not everyone is sharing same view with mine and it's unfortunately a possibility that some might lose their interest towards the league if it's not starting/launching during the next season of Buzzerbeater.

As for starting next season, as we are playing 2 matches/week on regular season, that would give us a small breathing room though, meaning that as we each have 13 matches in regular season (which equals 6,5 real life weeks) and playoffs lasting 4 rounds (equals 4 real life weeks), the season will theoretically (if no serious problems stretch the season) be over in 11 weeks, while the Buzzerbeater season (as someone said) is 14 weeks long.

As for the groundwork required for the league, it is almost done/finished, as long as managers are ready to accept this 12 team playoff format presented earlier (in a forum post that MrJ compiled based on my suggestion)? At least nobody here in the forum has mentioned they do not approve it, so I take it as a sign that everyone accepts it.
(I do not automatically make the same kind of assumption with these suggested rules and penalties though, so please share your opinion on that).

In the case you guys want me to become the league Commissioner for the first season (do you?), in order to save time (and someone elses effort) I've started writing some posts (that would be used in a newly established forum thread for the homegrown league, and in separate thread that would be used only for sending the box scores for the league matches). If we want to use official polls in voting, it'd also be beneficial for us to establish a thread in where all polls (and nothing else preferably as the other thread would be used for discussing the league stuff) are being positioned - as I'm not a Supporter, one of us who is (and who somewhat regularly wants to check up their BBMail if new polls need to be opened) would need to open such forum thread.

Referring to the very first post (324689.1): Yes.

Last edited by LA-flaterik123 at 3/5/2025 1:10:35 PM

I find this thread very difficult to keep up with. Reads like legal disclaimers and very verbose. For me, if someone signs or plays a non-homegrown player then they are removed from competition. If they fail to schedule or accept an invite, they forfeit the game.

This is very low stakes for me. If I can play some games against other homegrown teams then I'm happy. If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time. Simpler the better and we can grow from there.

I agree, Gccsteel. This has been my concern all along (that lengthy and perhaps unnecessary rules and regulations would be contemplated that would deter people from being a part of a HG league.

@ Wagner: I'm not sure if it is just because I have just got out of hospital (nasty food poisoning bout) and I'm annoyed because I'm unhappy, or I'm just grumpy, but I have found everything you have posted recently on the rules and regulations as exactly what I hoped not to see: excessive and unnecessary.

Gccsteel made a comment, "This is very low stakes for me. If I can play some games against other homegrown teams then I'm happy."

While I don't suggest a league won't be highly competitive and challenging, it is still a game and still meant to be fun. Who would play any sport, or board game, if it would require an extremely lengthy book beside it to remind you of every intricacy of rules. Noone. I wouldn't as it would take the fun out of it.

I can't speak for everyone here, Wagner, but I seriously think simpler is better.

I will also take this opportunity to again thank you for your time and effort, but ask you consider everyone's thoughts and feelings on this.

We should also wait to hear from others. Mine and Gccsteel are but two voices.

If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time. Simpler the better and we can grow from there.

I agree, Gccsteel. This has been my concern all along (that lengthy and perhaps unnecessary rules and regulations would be contemplated that would deter people from being a part of a HG league.

@ Wagner: I'm not sure if it is just because I have just got out of hospital (nasty food poisoning bout) and I'm annoyed because I'm unhappy, or I'm just grumpy, but I have found everything you have posted recently on the rules and regulations as exactly what I hoped not to see: excessive and unnecessary.

Gccsteel made a comment, "This is very low stakes for me. If I can play some games against other homegrown teams then I'm happy."

I hope you're already feeling better, and thank you for your opinion - that makes the match result 2-1 currently to favor more simple rules than what I suggested (my vote not count)!

I wish all rules would be unnecessary. I know it attempts to take into account many things, that might even never happen. But it's also created in an attempt to make it as equal and fair to all, and to block some of the risks that relate to PU league, especially in terms of manager commitment (organizing matches).

Maybe we need to (and will) find some balance between all these plans, and I'm all ears - all other participating managers, please let us know your opinion on rules and penalties (if possible, please read my suggestions - 4 long messages - that I sent to forum couple of days ago).

Again, in order to emphasize the importance of understanding one correct, I'll use what CGSteel wrote as an example here. Like I mentioned, as a non-native English speaker I don't think I can understand the whole meaning of "very low stakes", so you're free to elaborate. :)

- Does it mean he does want to participate, but does want to use as little time and effort in doing so?

- Or are the rules badly written, so that it takes lots of effort to understand them (that's only a brief compilation)?

- Or does it feel as though he would already expect to break some rule if he already knows he's not wanting to put in the time to read them (for instance, not organizing a playoff match as that's what requires a weekly action from a manager during certain time frame) ?

- He mentioned: " If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time", so what does that actually, in concrete form mean?
Printing out a page about the penalties and rules, and perhaps underline the paragraphs that one feels is most likely to feel problematic out of all those rules, to avoid breaking them?
Or does it mean that one feels they need to make extensive notes from the rule book in order to remember and be able to follow them?
These are genuine questions as a non-native English speaker, and not meant to put down anyones' opinion.

"For me, if someone signs or plays a non-homegrown player then they are removed from competition. If they fail to schedule or accept an invite, they forfeit the game." -CGSteel

These are the absolute minimum (but not totally adequate - I'm sure we can reach a pretty good result by keeping on conversation) rules in my opinion. From the first violation I'd at least add "for the current and full next season" after your word 'competition'.
For the forfeit part, we're getting to the problematic parts (which I actually had listed for the more specific rule set of mine, but I didn't yet want to crowd the forum more than this).
In order to penalize team, how do we even prove that:
A) correct challenge has been sent but just not accepted (in time or at all)
B) correct challenge hasn't been sent at all?

Again, I don't think we should take the screen capture route here, there should be a better way.

I agree, Gccsteel. This has been my concern all along (that lengthy and perhaps unnecessary rules and regulations would be contemplated that would deter people from being a part of a HG league.

I am glad you shared your concerns on this. It has altered (and likely will keep altering) my thinking towards the benefits of more simple rules over time. Having established a set of rules that I sent to the forum couple of days ago is my view on things, and while rules and penalties do form an essential part of the core and spirit of the league (and I personally take an extremely serious approach to it), I have come to realize I don't know how all people think about this rules/penalties issue.

Like CGSteel well said, we could start from certain point, and then possibly develop from there.
We all have the same goal of getting the league running so I believe this is not going to be a deal breaker issue.

However, as things have a tendency to remain as they are, so I have no idea how responsive other managers would be should we face some problematic scenarios due to not applying certain rules/penalties in the first place, into which I'd then suggest penalties as needed for the future use (for instance from the rule set that I've already created).

Lack of conversation has been apparent, but I guess now we all should try to find some time to voice our opinion before it's too late.

@MrJ: have you happened to approach participating managers by BBMail about the season closing in and decisions needing to be done (opinions given), or shall we let things go naturally and let people comment on these discussions if they feel like it?
Should we then just expect them to reply 'yes to everything' if they do not comment anything?
Lack of proper and clear voicing of opinions has been one big problem here, which I think we need to address when we get the league running (like I proposed, one of us who is Supporter can establish a 'Homegrown League Voting Polls'-forum thread or something like that, into which voting polls - and in the future hopefully only those, and not excessive discussion - will be created).

While I don't suggest a league won't be highly competitive and challenging, it is still a game and still meant to be fun. Who would play any sport, or board game, if it would require an extremely lengthy book beside it to remind you of every intricacy of rules. Noone. I wouldn't as it would take the fun out of it.

Myself, and so many else.
While this is partly off-topic, I can't help but to give you a tip from a web page Boardgamegeek.
(Although that's what the name suggests, it's just not for geeks, as if I've understood correctly, it's one of the most appreciated board gaming websites in the world).
In there, for instance, the number 1 rated board game of all games is a very complex strategy game called Brass: Birmingham. And there are numerous other example in top 50 or top 100 games... this is just to give an example, a reminder, that it's hardly ever "nobody could like that". Life is hardly ever totally black or white.

There are positives and negatives within both simple and complex rules.
Simple rules do not take things into account, which makes exploitations, messing up the game for others etc. possible, and complex rules demand (sometimes lot) more from the reader than simple rules.
However, on the other hand, why would one be afraid of rules if they wouldn't think they'd possibly break them?
Possibly because:
A) One doesn't agree with all these rules in the first place (want to change them somehow)
B) One fears that they wouldn't remember all rules (rules are always available on the website though, and are same to all, so it maybe boils down to C))
C) One doesn't want to put in the effort to read and understand them properly
D) They either intend to (not likely) or fear that they will break them. That, however, brings me back to the core reason why rules exist.

I can't speak for everyone here, Wagner, but I seriously think simpler is better.

I will also take this opportunity to again thank you for your time and effort, but ask you consider everyone's thoughts and feelings on this.

We should also wait to hear from others. Mine and Gccsteel are but two voices.

Your opinion is certainly noted and appreciated, thank you.

I do also want to thank you for the time and effort you've put into this, and hopefully will keep doing so in the future as well.

I do agree we should hear from the others too. Like I mentioned, with a risk of repeat as it's such a critical issue, we should establish some baselines for this in the future (do not need to decide it now; I have some suggestions about that in mind - polls open for 14 days in the newly established forum, etc., but more on those later) to ease the process of for example making decisions on some aspects concerning the home grown league, and make it possible to get some decisions out in a certain time frame.

For instance, I don't want to jump into any conclusions, but you were asking from our community in one of your posts, that would managers back up your suggestion of me becoming a league Commissioner for the first season of league, and I also "quoted" your question in maybe 1-2 of my posts to get some response. What we´ve got is 0 response so far. You read right: 0.
And we're living quite critical time in terms of finalizing the work and getting the league started next season. (I've done some of the work in the background just in case already though, so many parts of it such as new forum thread text is practically almost ready, should I get the "official approval" to be Commissioner from our community).

Should I make some conclusions from that? I wouldn't prefer, as I'd like a direct approach in where people state their opinion, whatever it is. I'm not going to attack anyones' opinion, as long as they treat me with respect. I also consider being patient, and do expect people having good intentions in their communication. It's totally OK to be direct with me in communication, so please don't hesitate on that.

I haven't felt the need to write some "election speech"-type of stuff in order to convince people that I'm in this seriously. My direct approach is maybe not everyones' favorite approach, but at least it should keep table relatively clean, especially as people always keep in mind that I do not have any intention or need to attack anyones' opinion by being direct in my communication, but I instead appreciate different opinions. It is necessary for all to remember that we don't need to agree on everything (it would be impossible anyway...), and still can make it work, and make it work big time.

Also, in stating an opinion there's a challenge if one voices their opinion without giving any grounds as to why they think like it, we could never know which aspects they have even considered (or read all the stuff that has been written in forums and taken that into account when forming opinions, or did they just flip a coin). That downside is especially emphasized if we only receive few opinions (instead of opinions of 14 managers).

What I also consider problematic in deciding what people think/would vote is 'if they don't say anything, take it as a silent yes'-approach. While it's sometimes maybe necessary approach, it also does have major risks built in it, causing especially challenges in manager commitment levels if they in reality don't agree with decisions.

So we still have 10 out of 14 managers that haven't voiced their opinion on this rule set/penalties-issue (after new suggestion has been sent to forum on this Tuesday) - please do, as we do not have all that much time to finalize all aspects concerning the league starting next season.

I appreciate all the hard work you all are putting into this, I agree with the Keeping It Simple method. Rules are needed if not followed, but this is a game for enjoyment, so officially my vote is keep it as simple as possible.

I appreciate all the hard work you all are putting into this, I agree with the Keeping It Simple method. Rules are needed if not followed, but this is a game for enjoyment, so officially my vote is keep it as simple as possible.

Thanks, T-Lit.

Without responding to each and every one of your points, Wagner, I believe the following question to everyone might respect everything thus far completed/discussed, while moving us necessarily forward.

Attention HG Managers, please simply read the following and select a number that represents your current readiness to compete in the HG league due to start next season. Respond to this post with a number (your choice).

CHOOSE ONE OPTION:

1. You accept Wagner as Commissioner, accept any consequences if you break the rules, and are ready to stay HG, just get the league up and going. (Respond with a ‘1’)

2. You wish to be the Commissioner, will set the rules and regulations yourself and have all this done in a few weeks, ready for the new season, (Respond with a ‘2’)

3. You accept Wagner as Commissioner, are ready to compete and stay HG, but want to spend more time discussing the rules. (Respond with a ‘3’)

4. You do not wish for Wagner to be Commissioner, but are ready to stay HG and accept any rules, and get on with the league. (Respond with a ‘4’)

5. Don’t care who is Commissioner, don’t care how few or many rules are adopted, just want to play in a HG league and abide by any consequences if I break any rules. (Respond with a ‘5’)

1

Thank you for voicing your opinion T-Lit - after casting your vote the "official score" (without my vote, which is quite obvious) at the moment seems to be 3-1 to favor more simple rules.

While I prefer another (more thorough) approach, I do also appreciate some aspects that having simple rules create - like I said, I don't think this is a black or white thing, but each option has pros and cons.

Some people (like me) even find enjoyment and nice added challenge from certain type of complexity (rules, etc.), especially when their existence serves a purpose. But again, no "wrong" answers here, so (also other managers) please keep on posting your opinions. :)