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@Wagner. While I do not agree with too many rules and regulations for managers, as I believe this might cause managers to be unwilling to compete in the first place, I do acknowledge your commitment to this HG League and setting up in a manner you believe correct.

Hello all,
I've been working on my suggestions in terms of rules and penalties. I hope following messages will create conversation as we don't have too much time to waste.

I've been working mostly on this penalties/rules section on the league for two reasons: in order to ensure it would be ready in time, as it's one of the most critical aspects, and most other aspects of the league have been presented with a workable option already.
Yes, MrJ also provided his view on penalties, which I in many parts agree. However, I'd prefer a bit more strict and prepared approach in order to ensure things go as smoothly as possible as consequences in some cases have the funny and pleasant effect to make people act for the good of the league and all it's managers even if they wouldn't always feel like it.

Secondly, as I've understood, most aspects of league (like league system) have been accepted by managers and all participating managers know how league will approximately run, so this information can be written later.

What I'm about to send here is a brief compilation (with possibly some faults, but at least with some exclusions that can be found from full set of rules) of suggested rules and occurrences leading to penalties.

I hope, and would like to assume that we won't be needing these penalties, but on the other hand I see it as a positive that certain rules exist, so that if we're going to have to enforce some penalties people have been let known beforehand of consequences.

Please all let me know what you think of following penalty structure, severity, etc.. And as there are 14(?) of us currently participating, I hope as many of us as possbile would comment on these posts. If, say, 2-3 will comment, it's hardly a conversation.

If you accept it (at some level), you can let me know here in the forum or by BBMail.

If you don't like some parts of it, let me know. But please, if you don't like it, would you let me know for instance:
A) why you don't like it,
B) what in it you don't like,
C) what penalties would you change/not use, and
D) why would you want to change some aspects of my proposition, what are the benefits of your proposition over mine?

You may also comment something without elaborating, but opening your thinking patterns would prove to be very useful in getting an idea what people don't like and do like.

If I get the feedback here, that we could proceed with a plan that's along the lines what I've suggested here, then I could perhaps post rest of the rules, exceptions, etc. to the forum to see what you all think and what would possibly need to be changed.

There are also some problematic considerations on some of these rules that we may have to address before deciding if we should apply such rule and it's penalty or not, or change violations' severity, etc., and I might share some of those problematic aspects with you soon.

As for main points on next messages what I wouldn't want to negotiate on (and what therefore partly differentiates this proposition from MrJ's proposition of penalties), as it "attacks" the idea of being HG team severely, is at least this:

***Becoming non-homegrown team in the middle of the season is something we do not want to encourage, and that needs to be penalized immediately and severely (out for current and following season) without issuing warning first.***

Let's face it: teams do not just "accidentally" become non-homegrown, and if they (decide to) do so, it's unlikely they would like to join the league for the next year anyway. (Only 1 exception for that rule). It's actually very easy rule to understand and therefore remember and stick with, as it is so clear.

Brief compilation of different levels of penalties (more thorough explanations and exceptions found from full rules, and certain details yet to be decided.):

Level 1: Lowest level (warning and?) penalty system, including (possibly first warning without sanctions?) yellow and red cards that remain with the team for the remainder of the season (exclusions could apply on some cases if violation is being made during playoffs to ensure penalty efficiency - still to be decided).
Only warnings as level 1 penalties might not be effective enough (and failing to organize matches during most important time of season, playoffs, would produce only a warning if no previous warnings would've been issued), especially as organizing all regular season matches at once mostly eliminates the risk of regular season matches not being organized properly.

I suggest replacing "warning only"-first stage penalty level with a Yellow card and Red card-system (still Level 1 penalties though), which has some similarities in cards being dealt to players in soccer (further explanation will be found from more thorough explanation of rules; not included here).
Yellow card would produce no direct consequences in terms of results, forfeits etc., but serves as a last warning (as well as first warning, if we don't use warning before giving team a card).
Red card, however, would produce 0-50 forfeit for the team being penalized.
Acquiring many enough (2 in this suggestion, yellow and red) cards during the season would cause Level 2 penalty for the team for each violation for the rest of the season; see below.

Level 2: 0-50 forfeit loss for the match in question. Some exceptions apply, for instance if team already has reached a red card penalty level during that season (more thorough explanation available in full description of rules and penalties).

Level 3: 0-50 forfeit loss for the match in question, and ineligibility for the current season playoff play no matter how good the team regular season success is.

Level 4: Immediate disqualification from the current season, including playoffs; match in where violation occurred, and all the future scores for the current season will become 0-50 forfeit losses.

Level 5: Immediate disqualification from the current and for the full forthcoming season; match in where violation occurred, and all the future scores for the current season will become 0-50 forfeit losses.

Level 6:Death penalty (term being used by NCAA for certain severe violations): Immediate disqualification from the current and for the full next season, and in addition being in probation for the next full season after that (should they wish to participate in BBHG league in that season). All the future scores from the current season, and result of match in where violation occurred will become 0-50 forfeit losses.

Being in probation for the whole season means (in this homegrown league) that if team commits recurring violations that cause level 5 or 6 penalties (becoming non-homegrown by either just buying, or buying and playing ineligible players in any BBHG league match), they will be penalized more harshly and will receive current plus 2 full seasons ban from the moment the violation has occurred.

*
INSTEAD OF PROBATION ON LEVEL 6 (AND/OR POSSIBLE OTHER LEVELS, IF PENALTY SYSTEM CHANGED), WE COULD USE:
A) for the start of the 3rd penalized season (which is season spent in probation) team receives 3 red cards, so it starts league with 3 forfeits and with a red card, which means every yellow card warning that season would automatically cause another forfeit (as team has already reached a red card penalty level for that season)
B) consider using current+2 full seasons ban, as I originally proposed
C) same level penalties than on Level 5 (so playing non-homegrown players in a homegrown league match would not produce higher penalties than just becoming non-homegrown team).

Brief compilation of possible violations (more thorough explanations and exceptions found from full rules; certain details yet to be decided. Certain violations trigger different penalty Levels on some situations.):

Violations triggering Level 1 penalty:

1. Sending (or accepting) a PU match with incorrect details

2. Not sending links to the Pickup (PU) games box scores to the appropriate forum in time (decent timeframe to be determined)

3. Not playing the match in a necessary time frame (Timeframe to be announced later, but I extremely strongly recommend that timeframe cannot overlap Fridays game shape update in any case. In certain cases re-match can be attempted within a certain timeframe - if not played at all or way too late; Level 2 penalty especially if team responsible for it can be determined)


Violations triggering Level 2 penalty:

1. Team reaching a Red card penalty level during that season (or due to penalties being carried on from the previous season; likely in very rare cases).

2. Not sending a PU match offer(s) - penalty to the team responsible (if we can prove match didn't take place because it just hasn't been accepted).

3. Not accepting PU match offer(s) which are sent with correct details - penalty to the team responsible (if we can prove match didn't take place because match offer hasn't been accepted).

4. Not playing the match at all (IF it can be proven from who it depended that match did not take place; additionally yellow or red card (depending if team has previous warnings) for the team responsible for it. ****Also proving this is, like many other scenarios is likely to be a complicated issue, and needs to be discussed further. Any ideas that solve such issues are appreciated.****

5. Not dressing at least 5 players into the match. Additionally Yellow or Red card (depending if team has previous warnings). Certain injury exemption is applied to give some amount of protection from penalties due to injuries to teams with very small rosters.


Violations triggering Level 3 penalty:

1. Not dressing at least 3 healthy players into the match. (Exception: if situation is corrected by the team in time, they can continue regular season till the end, but not participate in playoffs. If not corrected by the team immediately, so that if violations still persists in the 3rd match in a row or 3rd match in total during the season, Level 4 penalty applies immediately).


Violations triggering Level 4 penalty:

1. Not dressing at least 3 healthy players into the match.
Please note: this violation doesn't immediately trigger level 4 penalty. Teams can try to remedy this situation of having less than 3 healthy players to dress for the match by buying back their own drafted players if they have sold players previously. This must be done within certain time frame/immediately, as playing 3rd match of the season with less than 3 healthy players in the roster will cause immediate Level 4 penalty.


Violations triggering Level 5 penalty:
1. Buying a player(s) at any time of the season, who is (/are) not eligible for playing in homegrown league. It makes no difference whether you buy player "accidentally" or intentionally, or whether or not you fire him immediately or keep him for good. If you buy such ineligible players, result will be immediate disqualification from this and following season, and if games have been organized for the rest of the season, they will end in a 0-50 forfeit no matter what the actual score will be.


Violations triggering Level 6 penalty:

1. Buying a player(s) at any time of the season, who is (/are) not eligible for playing in homegrown league and playing him/them in a BBHG league match (regular season or playoffs). Please see above ("Brief compilation of different levels of penalties"; Level 6) different options on how we could implement this penalty level, should we implement it.

So here's my current take into penalties (and rules that when violated would cause consequences).

Please remember, as I mentioned there are many problems/challenges what becomes for instance to proving who was the guilty part, because we'd need to be able to create surefire and equal system to ensure that (if we are enforcing strong penalties based on that; or then we have to lift some of those penalties or transfer them into lower penalty category etc.).

I have been thinking of the problematic scenarios concerning those 3 previous messages, but like I mentioned, I didn't mention them just yet because I guess there's already 15000 characters for you to read in these 4 messages so it's enough for one day for me, isn't it? ;)

You can tell me as it is - I usually do the same, and while not everybody enjoys it fully (as there is good and bad being a direct communicator), please be aware that I do not have the intention to offend anyone when being direct.

Actually vice versa, I want to be creating this a good spirited community (which is how I currently find it - hopefully by establishing this homegrown league we can also create even more buzz to our forum). But I just find it somewhat effective to be direct on some communication situations, such as these when we are pressed in time to certain extent.

So if I may cast a wish, it would be that let's have a bit of conversation now about certain aspects (rules/penalties aspect in this case) of the league, before it's too late!

Please be aware that I didn't use tens of hours planning just for fun, as when I tried think it through, there was - and some of them still remain - some problematic aspects in PU league that I have tried to address with this penalty system. I'm the first one to mention it is far from perfect, but my intention here hasn't been to find all possible violations because I'd like to penalize people, but because I've found so many things that can go wrong if not addressed at all.

Whatever your opinion is, please let me know what you guys think.
Any feedback how you feel especially about my previous last 3 long messages is valued. I will read and seriously consider all your replies.

Please note: While I think strongly about some aspects concerning this homegrown league, if need arises, and if people far prefer simple system over my suggested system that takes into account more problematic scenarios (that we will face at some point), I'm ready to settle for more simple system in terms of penalties for violations.

Having said that, that Level 5 penalty (mentioned in previous messages) is the one that I wouldn't want to discuss/negotiate on, as I see having a strict penalty for such behavior necessary (and as I understood, for instance MrJ agreed with me, with the exception that he was willing to use the warning system first instead).

Last edited by Wagner at 3/4/2025 11:11:24 AM

Thank you for your input. I agree that I can get verbose.. Maybe I've read too many board games rule books or something, and trying to create a rule set that would take into account many situations beforehand. Maybe I need to start to look for jobs in legal department if my writing style is already perfect match for that... xD

But on a more serious note, if I'd be a league Commissioner (still haven't heard any homegrown manager to support that though - as MrJ proposed/asked that earlier from the community - so it looks promising for me, doesn't it? ;P), one of my goals with these more complicated rules/penalties has been to ensure that we are all at the same page, and hopefully attract managers who have enough commitment that they will arrange matches that they are supposed to arrange, and set up a lineups for those matches. (Also, knowing what to expect upfront would cut wings from future criticism on penalties).
Also, seriously preferably not become non-homegrown during season (as if that happens, especially for too many teams, there will be ridiculous amount of forfeits for the rest of the season and that's one of the reasons why I vote for current plus 1 full year penalty for such decision). This is a homegrown league after all, and while one can enter the league knowing they will violate the rule(s) during the season, I think it's best to do all we can to discourage such decisions.

While I also often tend to like simple games, on the other hand I have mixed feelings about oversimplifying. (I assure you, there are plenty of things that can go South with such PU league, but on the other hand in the best case scenario none or very few threats will realize themselves).

Having said that, I totally see the value in simple design too, which often (not always) comes with simple rules. (I wish the governing side of the league would be simple too in terms of not requiring manual score keeping etc., but I guess that's where we stand with this PU league and there's not much we can do about that?).

So it is certainly a possible approach that we start lighter (than what I just suggested) and like you well put it, grow it from there. The ground work is already there, if and as people accept the league system (12 best reach playoffs) proposed before? Still few small(ish) additions/possibly few information articles to come about certain details, but nothing too strange or difficult - I try to keep those possible articles quite simple (if people see me as a suitable person to become a league Commissioner).

You mentioned that "If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time", I guess you might not be only one with that feeling. (Being a non native speaker, I'm not 100% sure what's the complete meaning of "having hard time" in this case).

But as for what is expected from managers at the very least, the core demands are:
A) being and staying homegrown for the whole season
B) organizing and accepting PU matches with correct details (neutral court on regular season, etc.)
C) set up a correct lineup for those matches.
(D) maybe something else essential that I don't remember to write here right now)

So what was my point?
These basic functions are quite low maintenance for regular managers (I don't know about the league Commissioner role - only time will tell).
Another point was that if people would commit and stick to what has been agreed, no consequences of any kind, no consequences whatsoever would need to be introduced. Some of them are introduced though (at the very least the very basic level) in order to keep the league fun and fair place for all, and discourage it from becoming wrong kind of playground with uncommitted managers etc. I mean there's some deal of work in organizing everything, so I'd hope we respect league enough to play all matches assigned to us, including playoffs that need weekly attention from managers. :)

I agree for all.
Short question just to be sure - if I buy one player(drafted some seasons ago by me) - is it legal ?

Thanks for your message! So just to clarify - you meant that you'd be willing to see all these rules&penalties being implemented that I proposed in those 4 long messages (all sent yesterday within 1 hour)?

To answer to your question: yes, you are still considered a homegrown team if you purchase back a player that your team has initially drafted, so it's perfectly legal. :) Also in this league we will use Eliocroca CBs' manager LOPOs' definition of a homegrown team, which allows such actions. We might make some informative listing/comparison of teams based on whether they have received a salary benefits from such actions, but it's still undecided.

We have 2 replies so far (not counting myself, as my vote is obvious), 1 rooting for much more simple rules, and now you (apparently, if I understood it right) leveled the score at 1-1. :)

So other 11 managers as well that are participating in this newly established homegrown league, please share your thoughts on this previous rules/penalties suggestion of mine (sent on the forum yesterday), as time is not on our side for too long (start of next season is closing). I could be guessing what certain managers might vote for, but on the other hand it'd be better to take nothing for granted, and I'd rather let their voice out their opinion here on this kind of set of rules without making assumptions.

Like I mentioned earlier, while I have a clear view on what I'd like this league to look like, a compromise is also a real possibility. This previously sent suggestion is probably my ideal structure of rules and penalties (that I could come up with with this amount of time on my hands), but I understand it's not ideal for some other managers.

So as I'm not in this alone so let's see if (even massive) compromise from my part is required in order to be able to get this started at the next season, as that's one of my top priorities as well. Having said that, for me better laid groundwork would be more important than getting it launched by some certain day, but again, I realize not everyone is sharing same view with mine and it's unfortunately a possibility that some might lose their interest towards the league if it's not starting/launching during the next season of Buzzerbeater.

As for starting next season, as we are playing 2 matches/week on regular season, that would give us a small breathing room though, meaning that as we each have 13 matches in regular season (which equals 6,5 real life weeks) and playoffs lasting 4 rounds (equals 4 real life weeks), the season will theoretically (if no serious problems stretch the season) be over in 11 weeks, while the Buzzerbeater season (as someone said) is 14 weeks long.

As for the groundwork required for the league, it is almost done/finished, as long as managers are ready to accept this 12 team playoff format presented earlier (in a forum post that MrJ compiled based on my suggestion)? At least nobody here in the forum has mentioned they do not approve it, so I take it as a sign that everyone accepts it.
(I do not automatically make the same kind of assumption with these suggested rules and penalties though, so please share your opinion on that).

In the case you guys want me to become the league Commissioner for the first season (do you?), in order to save time (and someone elses effort) I've started writing some posts (that would be used in a newly established forum thread for the homegrown league, and in separate thread that would be used only for sending the box scores for the league matches). If we want to use official polls in voting, it'd also be beneficial for us to establish a thread in where all polls (and nothing else preferably as the other thread would be used for discussing the league stuff) are being positioned - as I'm not a Supporter, one of us who is (and who somewhat regularly wants to check up their BBMail if new polls need to be opened) would need to open such forum thread.

Referring to the very first post (324689.1): Yes.

Last edited by LA-flaterik123 at 3/5/2025 1:10:35 PM

I find this thread very difficult to keep up with. Reads like legal disclaimers and very verbose. For me, if someone signs or plays a non-homegrown player then they are removed from competition. If they fail to schedule or accept an invite, they forfeit the game.

This is very low stakes for me. If I can play some games against other homegrown teams then I'm happy. If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time. Simpler the better and we can grow from there.

I agree, Gccsteel. This has been my concern all along (that lengthy and perhaps unnecessary rules and regulations would be contemplated that would deter people from being a part of a HG league.

@ Wagner: I'm not sure if it is just because I have just got out of hospital (nasty food poisoning bout) and I'm annoyed because I'm unhappy, or I'm just grumpy, but I have found everything you have posted recently on the rules and regulations as exactly what I hoped not to see: excessive and unnecessary.

Gccsteel made a comment, "This is very low stakes for me. If I can play some games against other homegrown teams then I'm happy."

While I don't suggest a league won't be highly competitive and challenging, it is still a game and still meant to be fun. Who would play any sport, or board game, if it would require an extremely lengthy book beside it to remind you of every intricacy of rules. Noone. I wouldn't as it would take the fun out of it.

I can't speak for everyone here, Wagner, but I seriously think simpler is better.

I will also take this opportunity to again thank you for your time and effort, but ask you consider everyone's thoughts and feelings on this.

We should also wait to hear from others. Mine and Gccsteel are but two voices.

If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time. Simpler the better and we can grow from there.

I agree, Gccsteel. This has been my concern all along (that lengthy and perhaps unnecessary rules and regulations would be contemplated that would deter people from being a part of a HG league.

@ Wagner: I'm not sure if it is just because I have just got out of hospital (nasty food poisoning bout) and I'm annoyed because I'm unhappy, or I'm just grumpy, but I have found everything you have posted recently on the rules and regulations as exactly what I hoped not to see: excessive and unnecessary.

Gccsteel made a comment, "This is very low stakes for me. If I can play some games against other homegrown teams then I'm happy."

I hope you're already feeling better, and thank you for your opinion - that makes the match result 2-1 currently to favor more simple rules than what I suggested (my vote not count)!

I wish all rules would be unnecessary. I know it attempts to take into account many things, that might even never happen. But it's also created in an attempt to make it as equal and fair to all, and to block some of the risks that relate to PU league, especially in terms of manager commitment (organizing matches).

Maybe we need to (and will) find some balance between all these plans, and I'm all ears - all other participating managers, please let us know your opinion on rules and penalties (if possible, please read my suggestions - 4 long messages - that I sent to forum couple of days ago).

Again, in order to emphasize the importance of understanding one correct, I'll use what CGSteel wrote as an example here. Like I mentioned, as a non-native English speaker I don't think I can understand the whole meaning of "very low stakes", so you're free to elaborate. :)

- Does it mean he does want to participate, but does want to use as little time and effort in doing so?

- Or are the rules badly written, so that it takes lots of effort to understand them (that's only a brief compilation)?

- Or does it feel as though he would already expect to break some rule if he already knows he's not wanting to put in the time to read them (for instance, not organizing a playoff match as that's what requires a weekly action from a manager during certain time frame) ?

- He mentioned: " If I have to take notes and make reference material to understand what needs to be done then I'm going to have a hard time", so what does that actually, in concrete form mean?
Printing out a page about the penalties and rules, and perhaps underline the paragraphs that one feels is most likely to feel problematic out of all those rules, to avoid breaking them?
Or does it mean that one feels they need to make extensive notes from the rule book in order to remember and be able to follow them?
These are genuine questions as a non-native English speaker, and not meant to put down anyones' opinion.

"For me, if someone signs or plays a non-homegrown player then they are removed from competition. If they fail to schedule or accept an invite, they forfeit the game." -CGSteel

These are the absolute minimum (but not totally adequate - I'm sure we can reach a pretty good result by keeping on conversation) rules in my opinion. From the first violation I'd at least add "for the current and full next season" after your word 'competition'.
For the forfeit part, we're getting to the problematic parts (which I actually had listed for the more specific rule set of mine, but I didn't yet want to crowd the forum more than this).
In order to penalize team, how do we even prove that:
A) correct challenge has been sent but just not accepted (in time or at all)
B) correct challenge hasn't been sent at all?

Again, I don't think we should take the screen capture route here, there should be a better way.