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It's quite obvious that while looking for proof that SB is worthless you did not get anything from the discussion.
Haeks block average is low precisely because he plays in a weak league. He is by far the best defender and thus is avoided by the game engine. Would he play say first polish league those high IS PFs would attempt much more shots facing Haek and his block average would go up to maybe 4.

How SB is effective?
Forced opponent to change player who shots - it isn't full success of defence. It's maybe 20% success because there are 4 other players on court who can score.
Alter shot is maybe 50% of success because i saw altered shots which gave points.
Even blocked shot doesn't mean full success because opponent has 20% chance to grab offensive rebound and still score. (And please note that unblocked shot could be missed, so defence can works even without SB).

Meanwhile steal is 100% success of defence. Even offensive rebound works the same as perfect defence, because it gives one full posession more. So OR is better than blocked shot.

Unfortunatelly we will not learn more about efficiency of Haek's SB in next season because he will play in league with ~12-13 bots (it's average number of bots on this level).

I have let you ignoring my replies slip for a long time now.

Manon, with all due respect, who is ducking whom?

What I said is,

The vast majority of managers have never even seen any "triple-17" nor have they had any players with the lofty salaries like those mentioned. And I see that no one disputes this; the best they can do is dance around it and try to justify it.

This is still true. Wah wah wah, hubba hubba hubba, but no one denies the truth of what I said.

But I don’t attack anyone for supposedly ducking the conversation.

I also said this about the “scaling down” topic you and the expert from Japan are trying so hard to push:

Whether less is more is another argument separate from this. Scaling down may be true and it may not be. I haven't seen that analyzed and I don't expect to see it analyzed.

There is my reply to you, but you must have missed it. Simply scaling down the biggest teams to smaller scales may work or it may not work. I haven’t seen that analysis performed, and I don’t expect to see such a complicated and esoteric analysis here. But just because someone says it is true doesn’t make it true. People rant and make assertions on these threads all the time as though they are Gospel, but we all know they are not.

Maybe in smaller leagues an entirely different approach is optimal. Maybe something works best at smaller leagues that wouldn’t work at all at upper leagues. Maybe or maybe not. But it is certain that smaller leagues do NOT enjoy the triple-17’s you talked about nor the lofty salaries you talked about. Those tools are simply not available to the smaller leagues, and maybe that means that simply following the same strategies as the bigger leagues is a sub-optimal approach. A bunch of other strategies would need to be studied, compared and contrasted to your simple scaling down strategy to see what is true about the smaller leagues. Without that study, somebody claiming something to be true and six bits won’t buy you a cuppa java.

Think about that.

Last edited by Mike Franks at 7/30/2015 4:12:29 PM

I happen to enjoy the builds they make even though I've haven't even made it to D3 yet. Why would they scale it down? Any offense/defense works in lower divisions and anyone can make a dominate SBing big in lower division but it doesn't mean it works in top leagues. No one needs to study anything to see if these scale downs work. Any type of team can be successful in lower divisions. You can create any team you like and be successful very quickly. You can easily scale the skills like many have said, it's not hard. Scale it to triple 12s or 13s it doesn't matter it will work. You can win just by managing GS, Enthusiasm, and GDP. My team sucks and I finished 2nd in my division.

They are making builds they can play and make an impact in D1/B3 games not some lousy D4 game. I want to hear about finished builds not a build that has triple 11s. I want to hear factual data not false data. Somethings that work in lower leagues doesn't proof that it works. To prove that a skill or offense/defense works it must be successful and work at the top levels of BB.

Simply scaling down the biggest teams to smaller scales may work or it may not work.

I disagree with this and I respectfully disagree with the majority of your statements on this topic. Manon isn't ducking you or anyone from what I can see. I personally agree with his perspective to a high degree, and I don't quite understand why you are trying to re-argue the triple-17's that he talked about, as it doesn't correlate with what you are stating and I believe you misunderstood what he meant. He was saying that players with high skills can still be salary efficient at a top league if you punt some other skills that might not be as useful and exchange them for a lot more shotblocking. He is not saying that teams in D.IV-D.III have or need players with 17+ skills, he is simply explaining the builds that are salary efficient and still effective players.

Last edited by E.B.W. at 7/30/2015 5:45:55 PM

EBW, I think you missed my point entirely. Manon and others are arguing that simply scaling down the skills and salaries of teams in top leagues allows managers in the lower leagues to have success by using the same strategies that they use in the top leagues, and using the same builds (just smaller overall). [EDIT: That is the reasoning offered to try to make talking about these triple-17 players somehow relevant to lower league managers. To his credit, he eventually backed off this idea.] My point is that while this sounds good, maybe it is true and maybe it isn't. No one has ever analyzed this, and unless and until someone does so, there is no data, just opinion.

Nova Nation seems to agree with me:

Any offense/defense works in lower divisions … Any type of team can be successful in lower divisions. You can create any team you like and be successful very quickly.

However, his post is all over the place and I'm not sure what point he is trying to make.


Last edited by Mike Franks at 8/1/2015 12:20:07 AM

I'm agreeing with them... I'm saying you don't need to analyze anything to prove that it works it's lower division. It will work because anything will work in lower divisions. Scaling down the skills will work no data needed.

Thank you for clarifying. Manon and the expert from Japan are the ones saying without data that scaling down what works in the upper leagues is the way to be successful in the lower leagues. I didn't think you were agreeing with that whan you say "anything will work." I am also inclined to believe many, many things will work in the lower leagues, although maybe not "anything."

Nope, I understand completely and I disagree with you. I think you can always scale it down and have it be a very reasonable comparison. Sorry for the confusion.

Last edited by E.B.W. at 7/31/2015 12:09:55 AM