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National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

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From: wozzvt

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158682.45 in reply to 158682.44
Date: 10/7/2010 4:34:35 PM
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because nobody is going to train 200k 22yr olds out of position for a significant amount of time after they've finished U21.

Not for nothing, but I've been doing this in the NBBA the past few seasons, albeit with a Spanish NTer. So, it's certainly possible (I made the NBBA semi-finals last season with him playing probably 40-50% of his minutes at PG), but I don't think there's anything fundamentally different about what Spain is doing. In fact, they've typically wanted me to push his core skills more, not his peripherals.

The problem with training peripherals early is that u21 is such a sprint, by spending time on the (slow-to-train) guard skills, big men are going to be throughly outclassed inside. For the NT it's not as much of an issue because NT big men tend to have kind of stabilized inside, so the differences in core skills tend not to be as huge. A 12/12/12 big man on the u21 team is going to get owned. And he's going to be so far from NT level inside skills, that I'm not sure he'd really be able to catch up.

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158682.46 in reply to 158682.41
Date: 10/7/2010 5:22:50 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
134134
I'm saying that starting a 20 year against the top 6(or 7, I left out Venezuela) teams should cause a loss. Straight up. This is just ONE player getting ~400 minutes of playing time for possibly one experience popup. I really don't see the difference in awful experience and inept experience being worth it. I doubt that the results for season 13 would have been different if I had played all 20 year olds in Season 12 (and magically made Worlds). The only game that was close enough to possibly make a difference in was the Chile game.

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158682.47 in reply to 158682.11
Date: 10/7/2010 5:31:16 PM
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i am going to take the team to the wrold chmp.

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158682.48 in reply to 158682.46
Date: 10/7/2010 5:32:46 PM
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question to the group.

I have a solid 18 yr old big man (possible NTer if I focused on him and 48 minutes) I picked up in the last draft. However, I train guards. Should I drop all of what I am doing and train the 18yr old or should I continue on the path knowing the players you have make me competitive in Div III?

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158682.49 in reply to 158682.48
Date: 10/7/2010 5:40:46 PM
LionPride
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Overall Posts Rated:
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Personally I would sell the big man. Don't sacrifice your teams needs, for the national team, because at best it is a bitter sweet victory if you get him to U-21, but also halted your guards trainings. Sell him, get some good cash, and solidify your current roster to be a very competitive team.

From: J-Slo

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158682.50 in reply to 158682.45
Date: 10/7/2010 6:55:28 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
8888

The problem with training peripherals early is that u21 is such a sprint, by spending time on the (slow-to-train) guard skills, big men are going to be throughly outclassed inside. For the NT it's not as much of an issue because NT big men tend to have kind of stabilized inside, so the differences in core skills tend not to be as huge. A 12/12/12 big man on the u21 team is going to get owned. And he's going to be so far from NT level inside skills, that I'm not sure he'd really be able to catch up.


Absolutely, I totally understand that's the catch. If we focus on adding some guard skills we will be going into U21 with 12/12/12 bigs, and the competition will be stocked with 16/16/16's. I completely understand there's no getting around that. In fact it's the fundamental change I'm asking to make in how we run things. My argument though is that:

1) Maybe our big men will be able to beat their big men outside/midrange, and what seemed like an advantage for our opponents will actually be mostly a wash for us?

2) Either way, those guard skills will pay off at the NT level once our guys catch up on the inside skills around 24-25. And I do think our guys could catch up: if we have five seasons (20,21,22,23,24), good height, and we're one-position training only 3 skills (I think we ought to consider SB'ing too but that's a whole different conversation) which mostly also cross-train each other, that's 4x IS, 4x ID, 4x Rb each season while still allowing for stamina, FT, one on one, or whatever twice a year.

So even with the slow down in age, with 20 one position trains at each skill shouldn't our guys be able to go from 12 to 17-18? The advantage of running the out of position training early is that once the age effects start hitting, you're already done with guard skills and even though things are going more slowly, at least they're being trained in their natural position.

The other consideration is that any US division from NBBA to d.V could train secondaries first and then train primaries for as long as their team's success allows, while the same can't be said about training secondaries last because at that point there's a very limited number of teams who can even afford the player. So a system that encourages training secondaries last limits the number of players who will ever see secondary training.

Just for the record I want to state that I completely understand asking managers to train big men in this way carries a high risk of costing our team U21 victories. My position is that the risk (or more pessimistically, the trade-off) is worth the reward to the US community, through the benefits to both the NT and the managers who own these players.

From: DOB963
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158682.52 in reply to 158682.51
Date: 10/7/2010 7:06:26 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
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Vote for DanOB963! I won the championship my first year and out coach many people i play.

From: Dawson

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158682.53 in reply to 158682.50
Date: 10/7/2010 7:07:20 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
134134
If you run 12/12/12 bigs, you will get crushed. You become reliant on outside attacking offense and opponents will key on it. Our IS on our bigs to start last season was 12, 14, 14, 11, and 11. You can sorta see the result.

From: J-Slo

This Post:
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158682.54 in reply to 158682.48
Date: 10/7/2010 7:14:03 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
8888
question to the group.

I have a solid 18 yr old big man (possible NTer if I focused on him and 48 minutes) I picked up in the last draft. However, I train guards. Should I drop all of what I am doing and train the 18yr old or should I continue on the path knowing the players you have make me competitive in Div III?


Well, in line with what I've been suggesting in this thread that we start encouraging managers to do, here's my advice:

1)Consider what your long term plans are for your guard trainees: are you counting on them to carry you to the NBBA eventually and be the focus of your team so you want them 100k+, or is your goal just to get two solid D.II starters and promote out of D.III?

2) If you would be satisfied with them being just D.II players, decide whether you will be able to get them to that level in two seasons?

3) If you think you can get them there, consider training two of your guards plus the new 18yr old big man in one-position guard skills for the next two seasons, then switching to big man training at season three. That might allow you to get the guards you need to accomplish your goals and also set you up to train a unique big man who can grow with your team and maybe help you push over the hump into the NBBA.

There's a lot of if's in there but I think it's important for people to at least be thinking about this sort of approach. If you don't think training your big man fits into your team right now, just go ahead and sell him. More money is never a bad thing.

Last edited by J-Slo at 10/7/2010 7:15:55 PM

This Post:
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158682.55 in reply to 158682.46
Date: 10/7/2010 7:26:31 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
55
I'm saying that starting a 20 year against the top 6(or 7, I left out Venezuela) teams should cause a loss. Straight up. This is just ONE player getting ~400 minutes of playing time for possibly one experience popup. I really don't see the difference in awful experience and inept experience being worth it. I doubt that the results for season 13 would have been different if I had played all 20 year olds in Season 12 (and magically made Worlds). The only game that was close enough to possibly make a difference in was the Chile game.


Yep which is why the question was asked and I echoed it. The problem is by playing all 21's do we disinterest the US group? It's possible. Previous coaches have sacrificed wins for positioning and who is to say by the same positioning 20's could of been played.

I also want to say that just because a 20 year old is on the roster, doesn't guarantee they play. Timing and circumstance do come into play. I also helped with a U21 team a couple of years ago and I remember how difficult it was for them to prepare for the next round because they were disengaged with the next class. The easiest (may not be the best) way to engage a manager is to play their players and keep the big picture in mind.

It's funny if you think about it. When you play this game long enough - it seems the big picture is all your really playing for. If you can win, go for it and push it, but don't forget to train someone so you can stay on top.

If you can't win, train, train, train and win where you can.

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