BuzzerBeater Forums

BB USA > National Team Debate Thread

National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

Set priority
Show messages by
This Post:
00
158682.43 in reply to 158682.42
Date: 10/7/2010 3:45:33 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
77
Hi im LeBron Wade and im running usa head coach. I know it looks like im not a very good coach but i really am. I will try my best to find the best players for USA so please vote for me if u want USA to win a national championship for once. VOTE FOR ME!

From: J-Slo

This Post:
00
158682.44 in reply to 158682.32
Date: 10/7/2010 4:14:36 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
8888

How excited are people going to be to get one of their players onto a u21 team that isn't very competitive, doesn't make worlds, and which is known to be nothing more than an honorary reward?

I'm all for the u21 team helping the NT, of course, but I'm not sure why that has to be mutually exclusive to fielding the best team possible and trying to win. I mean, in a best case scenario, any u21 team is going to have at most 2-3 future NTers on it. (Assuming the NT carries 18 players, say, ages 23-35, that's <1.5 per draft class). I think it should be possible to find the few u21'ers that really have a shot and help them, while still fielding a full team that can win.


Well I could certainly be mistaken but I don't think we would be all that uncompetitive. I feel like with ~similar guards and big men who can exploit match-ups we ought to be able to be more than just a punching bag for the rest of the Americas. We might go from contenders to underdogs though so it's a fair point, and if the team constantly appears hopeless, people might lose interest. The community would have to be open to that possibility, which is why I'm trying to be very honest about it.

I'd like to think it will still be a mark of recognition managers value though; there's nothing unflattering about a U21 flag that says "this guy is destined for great things".

I'm also not sure it HAS to be mutually exclusive, but for big men I feel like successful current U21 training is putting a cap on the quality of our NT bigs: U21 big men will never be better than the secondaries they are drafted with, plus however much primary skill we can cram on them before they go salary nuclear, because nobody is going to train 200k 22yr olds out of position for a significant amount of time after they've finished U21. So they either stop getting training around 200k, or get their primaries pushed into the 400k+ zone. Neither of those seems like the best use of our country's talent, that is really what I'm concerned about.

(edit= sorry I have to answer the other half of your post after some classes)

Last edited by J-Slo at 10/7/2010 4:16:19 PM

From: wozzvt

This Post:
00
158682.45 in reply to 158682.44
Date: 10/7/2010 4:34:35 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
228228
because nobody is going to train 200k 22yr olds out of position for a significant amount of time after they've finished U21.

Not for nothing, but I've been doing this in the NBBA the past few seasons, albeit with a Spanish NTer. So, it's certainly possible (I made the NBBA semi-finals last season with him playing probably 40-50% of his minutes at PG), but I don't think there's anything fundamentally different about what Spain is doing. In fact, they've typically wanted me to push his core skills more, not his peripherals.

The problem with training peripherals early is that u21 is such a sprint, by spending time on the (slow-to-train) guard skills, big men are going to be throughly outclassed inside. For the NT it's not as much of an issue because NT big men tend to have kind of stabilized inside, so the differences in core skills tend not to be as huge. A 12/12/12 big man on the u21 team is going to get owned. And he's going to be so far from NT level inside skills, that I'm not sure he'd really be able to catch up.

This Post:
00
158682.46 in reply to 158682.41
Date: 10/7/2010 5:22:50 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
134134
I'm saying that starting a 20 year against the top 6(or 7, I left out Venezuela) teams should cause a loss. Straight up. This is just ONE player getting ~400 minutes of playing time for possibly one experience popup. I really don't see the difference in awful experience and inept experience being worth it. I doubt that the results for season 13 would have been different if I had played all 20 year olds in Season 12 (and magically made Worlds). The only game that was close enough to possibly make a difference in was the Chile game.

This Post:
00
158682.47 in reply to 158682.11
Date: 10/7/2010 5:31:16 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
i am going to take the team to the wrold chmp.

This Post:
00
158682.48 in reply to 158682.46
Date: 10/7/2010 5:32:46 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
question to the group.

I have a solid 18 yr old big man (possible NTer if I focused on him and 48 minutes) I picked up in the last draft. However, I train guards. Should I drop all of what I am doing and train the 18yr old or should I continue on the path knowing the players you have make me competitive in Div III?

This Post:
00
158682.49 in reply to 158682.48
Date: 10/7/2010 5:40:46 PM
LionPride
II.2
Overall Posts Rated:
247247
Personally I would sell the big man. Don't sacrifice your teams needs, for the national team, because at best it is a bitter sweet victory if you get him to U-21, but also halted your guards trainings. Sell him, get some good cash, and solidify your current roster to be a very competitive team.

From: J-Slo

This Post:
00
158682.50 in reply to 158682.45
Date: 10/7/2010 6:55:28 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
8888

The problem with training peripherals early is that u21 is such a sprint, by spending time on the (slow-to-train) guard skills, big men are going to be throughly outclassed inside. For the NT it's not as much of an issue because NT big men tend to have kind of stabilized inside, so the differences in core skills tend not to be as huge. A 12/12/12 big man on the u21 team is going to get owned. And he's going to be so far from NT level inside skills, that I'm not sure he'd really be able to catch up.


Absolutely, I totally understand that's the catch. If we focus on adding some guard skills we will be going into U21 with 12/12/12 bigs, and the competition will be stocked with 16/16/16's. I completely understand there's no getting around that. In fact it's the fundamental change I'm asking to make in how we run things. My argument though is that:

1) Maybe our big men will be able to beat their big men outside/midrange, and what seemed like an advantage for our opponents will actually be mostly a wash for us?

2) Either way, those guard skills will pay off at the NT level once our guys catch up on the inside skills around 24-25. And I do think our guys could catch up: if we have five seasons (20,21,22,23,24), good height, and we're one-position training only 3 skills (I think we ought to consider SB'ing too but that's a whole different conversation) which mostly also cross-train each other, that's 4x IS, 4x ID, 4x Rb each season while still allowing for stamina, FT, one on one, or whatever twice a year.

So even with the slow down in age, with 20 one position trains at each skill shouldn't our guys be able to go from 12 to 17-18? The advantage of running the out of position training early is that once the age effects start hitting, you're already done with guard skills and even though things are going more slowly, at least they're being trained in their natural position.

The other consideration is that any US division from NBBA to d.V could train secondaries first and then train primaries for as long as their team's success allows, while the same can't be said about training secondaries last because at that point there's a very limited number of teams who can even afford the player. So a system that encourages training secondaries last limits the number of players who will ever see secondary training.

Just for the record I want to state that I completely understand asking managers to train big men in this way carries a high risk of costing our team U21 victories. My position is that the risk (or more pessimistically, the trade-off) is worth the reward to the US community, through the benefits to both the NT and the managers who own these players.

From: DOB963
This Post:
00
158682.52 in reply to 158682.51
Date: 10/7/2010 7:06:26 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
00
Vote for DanOB963! I won the championship my first year and out coach many people i play.

From: Dawson

This Post:
00
158682.53 in reply to 158682.50
Date: 10/7/2010 7:07:20 PM
Overall Posts Rated:
134134
If you run 12/12/12 bigs, you will get crushed. You become reliant on outside attacking offense and opponents will key on it. Our IS on our bigs to start last season was 12, 14, 14, 11, and 11. You can sorta see the result.

Advertisement