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It is a pity that Heak does not consistently play in the team setting he was made for, that would give much more info than some NT minutes.

Well then it would certainly help to have some support, actually any support, to the claim that Haek plays better and is more useful against top class opponents, rather than the one game he started and Germany underachieved allowing 129 points against an inferior team. I'm sure someone will come up with some explanation on how that happened, experiments and whatnot, but that fact remains.

Besides a single start in 7 games does seem to suggest, as BB King implied, that according to the NT staff the pros of his build do not outweigh the cons compared to the other Germany NT players. On a club level, given the low salary, it might be a different story, but the low rebounding is always going to be a problem (and his salary would be much higher if the guy had 16 RB and 9PA instead of the other way around). When we exchanged messages, I did tell Nachtmahr that he could not push RB to the level of his original plan, but I did not expect him to give it up completely...

Now please, if you want to talk about ID-SB players let's move the discussion to players, like the one you own, who actually could fit in a system in a non gimmicky way (you know, stuff like playing him as guard but defending a C, which is something similar to playing guards at C in Patient...)

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/6/2015 9:59:42 AM

I am very much interested in reasons why someone thinks Haek is not a good build, so i did have a reason to intervene when someone writes a post that had only the intent to show off (7.5 million) and be demeaning to another manager while not contributing anything to the topic of the thread.

Being a brother of mind to this poster i can see why you symphatise but it is your intervention that was uncalled for.

I agree that you are arrogant, the rest of you post is just funny.
As much as i want to reply i will abstain as it does not contribute to anything.

Enjoy your (imagined) victory.


Last edited by Robard at 8/6/2015 10:33:33 AM

Haek is not viable for his own NT, except situationally, how much more proof do you need? To me not his lack of scoring, but his rebounding gimps the build. The original plan Nachmahr had was excellent, then he gave up on RB (probably because he realised he could not get to the target) and the current build is just not as good as his original plan which was 18 in OD/HA/PA/ID/SB/RB or something along those lines.

I don't think you can have an elite big man without 2 out of 4 inside skills and since he's built not to play on offense except for passing the ball, then defense (including rebounding) is the only thing he brings to the table. If he defends guards, he might be more successful, except guards can pass the ball, while big men (usually) can't. Therefore in this case, I believe it's his inside skills that would go to waste.
You're left with setting him against top level 130+ TSP SF. At SF RB is important but not essential, so at SF I guess he may work, but would you really deprive your team of an equally gifted 130+ TSP balanced SF in order to stop the opponent SF?

Now take a guy with 12/17/17/17 and decent outside skills. Can he hit the open looks generated by his teammates? Yes he can. Can he hit outside uncontested shots at a reasonable clip? He probably can. Can he defend big men with 70k more salary? He can. So why are we still talking about Haek and trying to push that build on those criticising SB?

Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/6/2015 10:28:56 AM

Haek was never intended to be a star player, he was more like an experiment. His purpose is to be something like a last resort. A defender who can stop everyone.

Ok, I respect that, but we're here talking about how SB matters and can be successful and what the best ratio of SB-ID is (and on this I know you have your data) and on that we can agree. I was not the one who brought Haek in the conversation regarding high SB being successful.

It would have been interesting seeing him matched one on one against Finland's Hakkinen last season (at SF), since that's the player with the highest TSP in the game.

Ultimately the point is not only the ratio SB-ID, but also if with the best ratio you can build a successful team with the right combination (and I mean truly successful as BB King intends it). That's not clear yet. It's not clear that you can beat powerhouses who run staple LI with a team built with good SB-ID combinations with equivalent team salary. That we don't know. The only thing we know is that these kind of players if built properly are indeed salary efficient and therefore at least very useful at a club level.

I think until OD's effectiveness is reduced a little (and guards can efficiently carry the offense) it will not be easy.

The fouling problem with low ID is something that I'd like to check with my next batch of trainees. I think that probably with the right trainee, you will be able to keep ID lower without increasing fouling exponentially. My original plan was to have reasonable DR, and 17+ IS/RB/SB while punting ID, but Vecx talked me out of it and I'm glad he did, because my trainee still fouls quite a bit.




Last edited by Lemonshine at 8/6/2015 12:30:32 PM

I am very much interested in reasons why someone thinks Haek is not a good build, so i did have a reason to intervene when someone writes a post that had only the intent to show off (7.5 million) and be demeaning to another manager while not contributing anything to the topic of the thread.

I can assure you I didn't mean to cause this wake of destruction with my comment.

My remark about his build is mostly geared towards the amount of effort put into Haek. He's a very valuable player to be sure, and my casual use of the word silly may have sounded wrong.

What I meant is that I believe if somebody is going to put the incredible amount of effort and money that clearly went into creating Haek I think it could be done in a way that would turn Haek into a franchise player that turns an entire team around and not just a "Good supporter"

Didn't mean to cause world war 3 :)

Also... If I'm going to brag I better do it right.

At the time I didn't have 7.5 million. I had over 11 million.

All in good humor :)

Hehe, thanks for this. I argee with you that i would not spend 11 saisons of training to create a player that is primarily a pain in the butt for someone else but Nachtmahr is not a "normal" manager ;)

For the record: Feel free to state you opinion on the forum anytime. If someone uses words like "silly" i do expect a reason from anyone, any league unless it is 100% obvious. I already admitted my post was not nice, sorry.

Dont worry starting WW4 with another post though, i knew from the beginning the discussion with stinki would not lead to anything, seeing him go off again defending his "i am always right" attitude with made up arguments was mostly for fun.
It did have a positive result: Now i know your opinion about Haek ;)