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U21 National Team Debate Thread (thread closed)

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From: Orko27

To: Phyr
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296456.112 in reply to 296456.79
Date: 10/26/2018 3:24:30 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
4747
Everyone: Can you give examples of USA U21 or NT players that you have trained in the past. If you have not trained any, what qualifies you to guide a long term training program for dozens of players.

U21: Chris Prater, Eli Gay, Aubrey Bliss, Gerald Carrasco

NT: Aubrey Bliss

And I am currently working on Nelson Melendez for the U21 and Kim Fortin for the NT.

From: Nick

This Post:
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296456.113 in reply to 296456.112
Date: 10/26/2018 3:26:54 AM
Desert Eagles
IV.13
Overall Posts Rated:
147147
Second Team:
Eagle Farm
So would you say you're partly biased to run because you have an upcoming potential U21 player?

From: Orko27

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296456.114 in reply to 296456.105
Date: 10/26/2018 3:44:56 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
4747
Late Edit: To all candidates: How will you choose your roster? We had a couple instances were players made the roster but got sold and were kept in pitiful GS until the games didn’t matter. How will you combat these situations? Will you take an American owned player and manager over an American player but foreign owned even if he isn’t as good? By as good I’m talking a 1-3TSP difference. You can choose what SPs one has over the other to answer this.

Obviously, the first step would be narrowing options based on skills. Once that is done, I would heavily favor players from managers who have shown good communication during the development of their player, as well as those who have demonstrated an understanding of GS management.

I would not assume that a US manager would be more likely to maintain GS and/or follow training suggestions than a foreign manager. I strongly believe that most people can be counted on to do what they believe is in their best interest, so I would base my decisions on what I know of what those managers want to accomplish. There are likely a good percentage of people who would do it for 'Merica, because that's what they value, but I wouldn't assume it as a default.

From: Orko27

To: Nick
This Post:
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296456.115 in reply to 296456.113
Date: 10/26/2018 3:52:57 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
4747
So would you say you're partly biased to run because you have an upcoming potential U21 player?

Definitely not!

In fact, I've made it a point in the past to not try and promote my players over other candidates, even when I thought they were superior to others in consideration. I am more likely to leave my player off of the roster in favor of an equally skilled option than I am to push to get him on the team.

If I think Melendez is a better option than others, then I'll put him on the team, but my ego isn't particularly tied into his spot on the roster.

This Post:
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296456.116 in reply to 296456.43
Date: 10/26/2018 4:13:18 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
4747
Question to candidates:

JS/JR/OD/HA/DR/PA/IS/ID/REB/SB/ST/FT/EXP
So basically all the skills.
Point guard
Shooting guard
Small forward
Power forward
Center

Please give us your “preference” of order of importance, for the skills at each position.
Scenario 1:
PtB
Scenario 2:
LP
Scenario 3:
Motion

And then. Please explain any differences if any between man and zone for your positions when it comes to defense


I'll answer this question a little more generally than I think you intend. If you want more specific information, feel free to BB-Mail me or @ me on the Discord.

In all tactics, I'd put OD as the most important skill for PG/SG/SF. PA is important at both guard spots (critical at PG), and an important data point in deciding between SF prospects.

I rank ID as the second most important skill for a SF generalist, with specific builds favoring IS/JS in some scenarios.

All of the big man skills are important, but how they are ranked is role-dependent. I favor more PA on C's and more OD and JS on PF's.

From: Orko27

This Post:
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296456.117 in reply to 296456.63
Date: 10/26/2018 4:30:57 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
4747
Question to candidates:

What is your take on training U21 players that have HOF potential compared to Superstar potential? Do you have the players train the same or do you force more primary training on the superstar guy to benefit the U21 team more?

A lot of U21 teams have donkey bigs with high primaries and 1’s everywhere else. How do you feel about this? How might you exploit that?

What is your take on outside offenses? What skills do you look at for outside offenses compared to inside offenses? What would be your ideal outside offense lineup?

In your own opinion, how do you think the Game Engine works in regards to tactics? Specifically, I want to hear how you think a LI works compared to a RnG? For example, does the GE value passing as much as DR? Is JR useful in LI? Does IS matter in a RnG? What do you think?


Like I said, I believe that you can really only count on people to do what they believe is in their best interest. I will do my best to advise each manager on how they can best help the U21 team, but will defer to the goals that they set. If I can convince someone with unrealistic or wasteful goals to either change their plans or sell for profit, that's great, but I won't try to force someone into any kind of training, as I don't believe that would lead to a player that I could count on, regardless. If someone with a HoF potential player is interested in training the, with the NT in mind, I'll give them my honest assessment of what I think their best path is, while also, if it is plausible, offering a compromise path that might benefit the U21 along the way. Something like this is what led to Aubrey Bliss making the U21 as a SF on his way to training as a NT PF.

Donkey bigs can have an important role on U21 squads, and are usually necessary in order to be able to field a full roster from the pool of available players.

Outside offenses are important, but are generally harder to run successfully because of the global emphasis that is put on OD.

I believe that specific evaluations of tactics are best saved for a less public forum.

This Post:
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296456.120 in reply to 296456.43
Date: 10/26/2018 8:33:04 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
487487
This thread got a lot of activity since I left it yesterday so I'll do my best to answer all of the questions. If you see that I didn't answer something of particular interest to you either BB-Mail the link to the post or re-ask the question and I'd be glad to get to it.

Basically, I want as much OD as can be had at the PG-SF positions. IS is a nice bonus and someone has to have elite level JS and enough ID to be moved between the SG and SF position to be a scorer. Now that's my experience in a small nation where resources were limited and we had to get experimental on player builds. Speaking to experimental, I don't think super high levels of RB are quite as necessary(still need to have an acceptable level for sure) and I like SB on my bigs. PA is another skill I think needs to have an acceptable level to but doesn't need to be outrageously high. For the SF position, I like both OD & ID to be capable of playing any defense(preferably we have an outside, neutral, and inside SF, but we don't always get that each year), but I really want JS and IS so they can always score from there.

For the differences between man and zone would have to be the common knowledge that bigs might have to defend more 3s and thus I'd prefer they have a little OD to make that work. Also, as much SB as possible for the zones. In M2M, it really comes down to matchups against the other teams offense.

I once had a team with 1757 players and was $25,835,360 in debt. This is not that team. Join the Discord group open to anyone, but especially for USA managers to improve your club or get involved with the U21 and NT programs (https://discord.gg/cKpNkt2).
This Post:
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296456.121 in reply to 296456.53
Date: 10/26/2018 8:36:58 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
487487
A strong offensive build will always be more achievable, and more quickly achievable the way training is set up. That said, defense is still necessary. For a U21 setting, scoring is more valuable but defense being too low can become too much a liability unless that player has 20/20 JS/IS and then would have to be used super situationally.

I once had a team with 1757 players and was $25,835,360 in debt. This is not that team. Join the Discord group open to anyone, but especially for USA managers to improve your club or get involved with the U21 and NT programs (https://discord.gg/cKpNkt2).
From: khenry

This Post:
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296456.122 in reply to 296456.63
Date: 10/26/2018 8:46:31 AM
Overall Posts Rated:
487487
What is your take on training U21 players that have HOF potential compared to Superstar potential? Do you have the players train the same or do you force more primary training on the superstar guy to benefit the U21 team more?

First off, it depends on starting skills and what the manager wants out of the player. If the starting skills for the HOF player have significant holes to where making the NT will be a chore then we can devise a plan much like the SS to make the U21. If the skills are that of a NT plan, then we have to work on that route and realize he might not be on the U21. Also, if the manager just wants the player to be a specific type of player for his club then we have to respect that, but always if we think that player can be much more we can at least inquire about selling and attempt to line up a buyer.

A lot of U21 teams have donkey bigs with high primaries and 1’s everywhere else. How do you feel about this? How might you exploit that?

Get a little creative on offense and move some players around. A French Patient is how I beat China in continentals this past term(a CT helped ;)), but we knew their outside skills weren't up to par for defending the 1-2 scorers I had available. Now, that's not an option every week, but if we can find holes like that to exploit then I want to put players in position to make them pay.

What is your take on outside offenses? What skills do you look at for outside offenses compared to inside offenses? What would be your ideal outside offense lineup?

Outside offenses continue to be underutilized, but just like any offense you need to have the personel to make them work. More JS/JR is needed, for example, which can take away some of the defense and HA/DR or even IS since that is still what rules the roost for offensive prowess. That said, if we could field a roster 7-8 deep within our full roster I would love to have even more offenses available for use.

In your own opinion, how do you think the Game Engine works in regards to tactics? Specifically, I want to hear how you think a LI works compared to a RnG? For example, does the GE value passing as much as DR? Is JR useful in LI? Does IS matter in a RnG? What do you think?

First, JR and IS are useful and matter in every offense. For LI, you'll still take a couple jumpers and especially threes with a hit the further out you are, so having JR can help deter part of that hit. For RnG, yes the shots are going up quicker in the play clock but there are still quite a few shots in the paint making IS still very necessary. For tactics and the GE, I've always seen DR have a big effect for scorers but scoring off the pass has a higher percentage of makes, all things being equal.

I once had a team with 1757 players and was $25,835,360 in debt. This is not that team. Join the Discord group open to anyone, but especially for USA managers to improve your club or get involved with the U21 and NT programs (https://discord.gg/cKpNkt2).
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