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I'm looking for some opinions: When do you think a player with three fouls should re-enter the game? When do professional coaches generally re-insert starters with three fouls?

The game engine currently seems to only re-insert a player with three fouls somewhere around the middle of the third quarter.

What might be preferable would be for the game engine to take into account the effect of excessive fouls on how aggressively a player plays. There could be a reduction in shot blocking, ID, rebounding, and driving, such that the GE would treat an excessive number of fouls similar to how it treats tiredness.

This would mean that the substitution would be made based on the relative effectiveness of the substitute considering the foul trouble of the starter. As a secondary benefit, it could mean that when the starter and backup both have 3 fouls, that the starter might be brought back in, rather than going to a reserve.

Similarly, if a starter or backup were injured, the other player would be expected to play even if in foul trouble.

Alternatively, it could be a tactical setting on when to take a player out. For example, it could be assumed that a player will play in the last 6 minutes with 5 fouls. Then there could be a setting in minutes per foul.

( minutes_left - end_game) / (5 - PF) < minutes_per_foul

or re-arranging to avoid division by zero.

minutes_left < (5-PF) * minutes_per_foul + end_game

Assuming that end_game = 6, then if minutes_per_foul were 10

Player with 5 fouls could play last 6 minutes,
with 4 fouls could play last 16 minutes
with 3 fouls could play last 26 minutes
with 2 fouls could play last 36 minutes
with 1 foul could play last 46 minutes

The current GE is more like minutes_per_foul were 7 or 8

What might be preferable would be for the game engine to take into account the effect of excessive fouls on how aggressively a player plays.

It does, from what I know.

Also, it would really be fair for hidden physicality ratings to be revealed. It's a very important trait, and I'm sure not everyone knows about it.

In HT player characteristics def have a bearing for when I'm looking at players to add/sell.

Physicality is certainly an important aspect for a scorer. I look at the fouls/game average and #FTs attempted as my proxies.

I think that a starter with 3 fouls must re enter with the beginning of the third quarter. After all he has done half of the fouls he can do and he has played half of the game.
So I think he must be with the starters again after the half time.
If he makes his fourth foul too soon, then he might be benched for the rest of the third quarter and come back again in the beginning of the fourth period.
That's my opinion, I hope you'll agree with me.

I think it's pretty obvious after a few games to figure out which players are aggressive. Just look at the number of fouls they commit. I'm not sure if there's a difference in offensive and defensive aggressiveness in this game. My biggest hacker doesn't really seem to take too many shots, even though he's a guard, no matter what offense I put him in. Yet player on my roster who takes by far the most shots doesn't foul very often, and sometimes plays 48 minutes in a game. I actually wish he didn't shoot so often, so I wonder if there's some hidden factor that makes him think he's Michale Jordan.But that’s a side issue.

Regarding fouls, I think game situation has a lot to do with how many fouls a player plays with. Obviously, in a close game, you want you best players in the game. And when you’re losing, especially if it’s by a significant margin, you need your best players in the game. I think it’s fair to assume that if an owner instructs the coach to stick strictly with the depth chart, there’s a reason why that owner wants certain players starting, and they may have as much to do with training goals as with winning a game. If the direction is to strictly stick to the depth chart, I think players should play with more fouls than if the coach is given more leeway in who’s on the floor.

If it’s possible, it would be best for the simulator to be able to evaluate the difference in talent between a player in foul trouble and the potential substitute. If I have, say, only one good center, and all of my back-ups are no taller than 6’-9” and not very good, I think it’s harder to have my center on the bench for too long. But on the other hand, sometimes I want a lesser player to play as much as possible, regardless of his fouls. (I admit I sometimes stick my hacker, who fouls at an astounding rate, into the starting lineup in the hopes that he’ll injure one of the other starters. I want him in the game using all 6 of his fouls, and I don’t care if fouls out of the game before half-time. And believe me, if he was never taken out because of foul trouble, he probably would foul out by half-time in many games since he average a foul about every 4.6 minutes, which means fouling out of an average game less than 28 minutes into a game.) So, again, I think directing a coach to strictly stick to the depth chart may be a way telling the coach not to worry about foul trouble as much as if he didn’t have to be so strict. Or maybe there’s a new option on the line-up set-up page related to foul-trouble sensitivity.

But as a rule of thumb, a coach generally doesn’t want an important player to have 4 fouls before half-time, so 3 fouls in the first half typically gets a player a rest for the remainder of the half.

whoah! your telling me there is a secret characteristic for every player in bb world?

this is getting interetsing?

even with 3 fouls, i think the game engine adjust doesnt mean totally he would play th the third or what.

sometimes he even inserts them again either for substitution of tired players or he cant bare the fact of getting run off by a big lead.

because even if you insert him again in the third or fouth but your already down with 20 points its going to be harder to catch up and applying more pressure on the defensive end will likely cause more fouls than none at all.

OK, let me rephrase my original question (and this is for everyone, not just Charles):

At what point in time would you consider a player with 3 fouls to have transitioned from being in "foul trouble" to not? (Perhaps it's not implemented as just a switch, but as a continuous factor, though.) In my experience watching BB games, the current transition happens somewhere around mid-third-quarter.

I've been avoiding putting my own opinion on it, although you can probably guess that I think it should be earlier than mid-third-quarter.

Edit: P.S. Thanks for the info on the defensive adjustments when in foul trouble.

Last edited by Mod-oeuftete at 08/01/2008 13:08:53

But if a player made 2 fouls in Q1, and gets back on the court without making 1 foul in Q2, will the negative effect on D be downgraded/lifted in Q3?